Author Topic: Starting issue  (Read 594 times)

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Offline rocket

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Starting issue
« on: November 13, 2018, 12:24:27 PM »
Hi .....Got a strange one when trying to start the car {c20xe} the  ignition  is on turn the key hear a click 3 second delay it starts fine happends like 1 in 10 times .. parts changed Battery( 1 year old} starter motor  ignition  switch battery terminals cleaned all the earth points i could find battery off 12.35 v running 14.86v any help id be grateful of.
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Offline electric geen

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Re: Starting issue
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2018, 19:59:17 PM »
I would hazard a guess that the 25+ years old relays in the circuit are just about to collect their pension. Volt drop on the terminals of the relay winding due to oxidation, bad crimps or tired insulation in the windings of the relays. Only thing worse is a MK3 HST carriage from the 1970's, but that's another story....

Offline rocket

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Re: Starting issue
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2018, 15:48:03 PM »
There is know relays in the starting system
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Re: Starting issue
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2018, 13:13:22 PM »
There is know relays in the starting system

There is the fuel relay.......and prone to failure which will cause starting problems.

That would be my next area for investigation........... You also can't rule out a dodgy Starter motor Solonoid.........even a new one .....so in my case it jammed.......I gave it gentle taps with my hammer..... ....the the engine fired up......job done. 8)

I mention this because of the starting delay i.e....momentary jammed Solonoid......or as above faulty contacts in the fuel relay can be intermittent.

Finally......the immoberliser can play up....that also has a Solonoid.......I sometimes have to Arm and Dissarm a couple of times during starting.

Hope this helps.




Offline rocket

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Re: Starting issue
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2018, 14:49:57 PM »
Fitted a new gm  fuel relay last year know  immoberliser on mine ...yeah could be  Solonoid ive put a brand new battery on it see how that goes
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Re: Starting issue
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2018, 18:11:20 PM »
Why don't you try giving the Starter Solonoid a few sharp taps.   Reason being they are an electrical switch which when activated by 12v it pushes a plunger that shoots forward to engage the cog to mate with the flywheel.

Could be sticking and there wcould be a slight delay pushing the plunger forwards.......several taps would loosen any debris  that might have lodged into the barrel .  Also I would check the starting motor loom for any loose connection......and clean contacts.  Also the loom as you probably know is fixed to the Alternator......there could be a faulty connection there also.

Worth a try. Good luck.

Offline rocket

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Re: Starting issue
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2018, 19:00:36 PM »
Ive checked all the earths connections and contacts alternator is fine ....it was still doing it after i changed the starter motor ....a delay when you turn the key keep it turned for 3 sec and it fires up ......
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Offline wim_vg

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Re: Starting issue
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2018, 20:36:46 PM »
Few months ago, mine suddenly didn't want to start anymore. It would still try to start but never took off... looked at a LOT of things, but turned out to be the fuel relay.

Offline agw9262

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Re: Starting issue
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2018, 07:47:49 AM »
3s sounds like a fuelling issue - either the pump not priming (if it’s a model that should) or the non return valve has failed

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Re: Starting issue
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2018, 14:36:21 PM »
Hi  :)

The more times I read your starting symptoms......the more I am thinking as before.....Fuel Relay probs:

That delay could well indicate that when you turn the key momentarily...the relay switching contacts are slow to activate.  When as you say you hold the key on sor a few seconds......it fires up.

I feel that although you changed the F/Relay last year........it is playing up......ok maybe for a while.....but may give up the ghost ::)

Some EBay ones I have got in the past .......made in .......Timbuck.....god knows where have no longevity  :-\

I only buy GM ones.

Offline electric geen

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Re: Starting issue
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2018, 22:35:36 PM »
Haynes manual page 12.30 C20XE Motronic M2.5 The relay referred to is K68 a twin coil relay 6 pins at track 296
location? either relay box in engine compartment? or next to ECU drivers kick panel?

This is a quote from a pdf named "Bosch Motronic 2.5 Copyright Equiptech"
 
The Motronic electrical system is controlled by a single system relay with dual contacts. A permanent voltage supply is made to
relay terminals 30 and 86 from the battery positive terminal. When the ignition is switched on, the ECU earths terminal 85
through ECU terminal number 36 which energises the first relay winding. This causes the first relay contacts to close and
terminal 30 is connected to the output circuit at terminal 87. A voltage supply is thus output at terminal 87. Terminal 87 supplies
voltage to the injectors, ECU terminal 37, ISCV and the FTVV when fitted. In addition voltage is supplied to the second relay
contact.
When the ignition is switched on. the ECU briefly earths relay contact 85b at ECU terminal 3. This energises the second relay
winding, which closes the second relay contact and connects voltage from terminal 30 to terminal 87b, thereby providing voltage
to the fuel pump circuit. After approximately one second, the ECU opens the circuit and the pump stops. This brief running of the
fuel pump allows pressure to build within the fuel pressure lines, and provides for an easier start.
The second circuit will then remain open until the engine is cranked or run. Once the ECU receives a speed signal from the CAS,
the second winding will again be energised by the ECU, and the fuel pump will run until the engine is stopped.

Immobiliser Relay Haynes Manual page 12.28 Relay K3 track 109
 Location= Item 11 page 12.19

Offline rocket

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Re: Starting issue
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2018, 15:14:18 PM »
Ive put a new battery and fuel pump relay on it ... see how it goes thanks for all the help ....:)
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Re: Starting issue
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2018, 23:36:12 PM »
Hi rocket.

Your determination to solve your Cali problems is admirable........Repairi ng your car yourself as I do is very cost effective and finding an elusive

Problem and fixing it is so satisfying.  8).......When I have exhausted so many avenues I resort to calling a Mobile car tuner to whack her on the diagnostic computer so all starting and running parameters are shown in real time.  Ok it will cost around £40.00 but hire a good one and they

Have a wealth of knowledge and experience.......which will make the session very educational and they can do any needed tweeks or advise you what needs to be done.

You have done well so far.....and even if you have not yet cracked it......the parts you have replaced  thus far has given your car added longevity.
They should be able to trace the problems........and get your Cali running sweet.
Good luck.