Author Topic: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)  (Read 7336 times)

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Offline [email protected]

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2006, 14:20:53 PM »
Can't see GM making two different block designs just because they're mounted differently.  Think economics......

The engine still spins the same way so the stresses will be the same.  Plus you're only using the engine and keeping the Calibra gearbox and linkage, so that will not cause any problems.  The Omega is RWD by the way.....

I understand about GM not developing two completely different blocks for similar sized engines.  I was thinking more about the external engine mountings.  i.e.  I was thinking less about the stresses arising from the torque of the engine and more about the stresses caused by rapid acceleration and decceleration (i.e. fore & aft movement) and hard cornering (side to side movement).

Under hard acceleration & braking the longitudinally mounted engine will be pivoting along its long axis, so it should resist rotation better, it will also be supported more by the prop shaft going to the rear diff; but under hard cornering it will rotate about its long axis, across its shorter axis.

Under hard acceleration & braking the transversely mounted engine will tend to rotate more, but in cornering there should be more resistance to rotation, because the engine & gearbox are rotating along their long axis.

That is why I am surprised that the mountings are the same in such different configurations... although I understand that they are.

Offline will

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2006, 17:55:28 PM »
Maybe they figure that the potential stresses in a fwd transverse layout are not too dissimilar to a longitudinal rwd car in normal use, despite the differing rotational sresses..??

I guess if they "up the stakes" performance wise, the engine would be tailored to the car and vice versa, after testing and "tweeking".
Drives: an original SE6 auto, 93,000 miles (approx) and still going strong......(but some work is needed!).

Offline MarkV6

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2006, 20:52:28 PM »
what is the estimated hp of this monster?
I was hoping for about 230 - 240 bhp, but, had a .net RR session back in april which featured in Total Vauxhall magazine and only pulled 206 bhp  :-[ on the rollers.

I have an excuse though  :D

The cams have a letter stamped on them for which side they're meant to go (inlet 'G' or exhaust 'A' )  I had the 'G' cams in the rear bank and the 'A' cams in the front bank  ::)  I have now put them in the right place.  Still running the 2.5 injectors at 4 bar pressure so they will be a limiting factor and had a wierd fuelling problem from 4600 rpm (see picture)


Want to get the 3.0 injectors cleaned/checked/fitted, and a new lambda sensor fitted.  May RR it again to see if I still have the fuelling 'squiggle'

Offline [email protected]

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2006, 21:01:46 PM »
I was hoping for about 230 - 240 bhp, but, had a .net RR session back in april which featured in Total Vauxhall magazine and only pulled 206 bhp  :-[ on the rollers.

Put right, I reckopn that you should be pulling roughly what Courtney claim for their 3.0L V6 conversion - i.e. around 220bhp.  I'm sure that you could squeeze a little more out of it, but possibly at the expense of 'driveability'...

Offline MarkV6

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2006, 22:57:12 PM »
Took a trek down to Longbridge Mill today, mostly to re-bed in the cams and the new front brakes which I fitted the day before.

First one there....



Something I'm keeping an eye on though, wasn't giving it full beans on the way down, because she's not really been run since I put the cams in the right place, but she 'felt' a little flat on performance.

Maybe on my old champiro GT tyres, they gave less grip and caused the LSD to lock more often. On the way back off a couple of roundabouts I planted it and got nowhere near as much 'fight' back through the steering. Maybe the bridgestones are soooo much better.

Perhaps I ought to take the stuff out of the boot (two 3 ton trolley jacks, two full toolboxes, spare parts, junk and scrap, etc etc)

On the plus side.......the new brakes already feel loads better, even though they are still bedding in....

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2006, 13:09:24 PM »
Does Courtenay claim the Horse at teh wheels or at the crank?  If they are claiming at the crank, then it seems about right (assuming that RR gives an at wheels reading, and not adjusted for at crank reading).  Some RRs adjust the readout to give an at the crank reading although it actually reads at the wheels, not so accurate doing it that way.  How does she feel?  Does it really feel worth the money you have spent?  I want to do this same conversion....  3.0 motor, Courtenay Fly, Courtenay Heads, Courtenay Throttle Body, Courtenay uprated cams, Lenk SS headers (Tubular Exhaust Manni), F28. 

I wasn't aware of an Aftermarket Intake, where can I find this?

Offline MarkV6

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2006, 16:06:41 PM »
A fully 'tweaked' 3.0 should be good for about 230-40 bhp excluding any exhaust modifications, but it isn't cheap.

I just hand over the credit card now, spend too much to even bother looking at the bill anymore  :o

Mantzel do an inlet/plenum chamber for 676.50 euros

I'll be looking to get one soon next year.

TBH I knew it would be cheaper and easier to get more power out of a turbo, but people have already done that.  Aside from Frank D's monster how many sixers do you know of over 200 bhp.

c_riggan

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2006, 19:17:22 PM »
True, that's why I chose the six.  Just never got the project off the ground.  Had her for two years now

Offline [email protected]

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2006, 01:30:17 AM »
A fully 'tweaked' 3.0 should be good for about 230-40 bhp excluding any exhaust modifications, but it isn't cheap.

Aside from Frank D's monster how many sixers do you know of over 200 bhp.

There are a few with between 220-240bhp, but not many much over that.  In any case, once you go much over that you start reaching the limits of fwd - that's one reason the Turbo had 4x4, to cope with the slightly higher power.  If you want a 300bhp monster, you'd be better off starting with a rwd or 4x4 car.

c_riggan

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #24 on: December 26, 2006, 09:28:10 AM »
What are you people on about, limits of FWD.  I've seen and driven plenty of FWD cars with over 300.  Traction was only an issue if you really jumped on it, as it is with a RWD also.  4x4 I'll give ya.  I'm just tired of all this sh*t about too much mpower for a front drive, BULL sh*t, just learn how to drive one.

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #25 on: December 26, 2006, 12:46:09 PM »
What are you people on about, limits of FWD.  I've seen and driven plenty of FWD cars with over 300.  Traction was only an issue if you really jumped on it, as it is with a RWD also.  4x4 I'll give ya.  I'm just tired of all this sh*t about too much mpower for a front drive, BULL sh*t, just learn how to drive one.

It's not a 'matter of opinion' - mine or anyone else's - it's a simple matter of physics:

When you brake hard load is transferred forwards onto the front axle, which increases the load on the front wheels.  Up to the point of skidding, this increases the braking effect on the front wheels; once the wheels have lost grip the extra load causes skidding, until the cause (excessive braking &/or cornering) is removed.  Meanwhile the back end goes light, which is why, in a corner the car can go into oversteer.

The opposite is true when you accelerate hard, load is transferred backwards onto the rear axle, which increases traction, so the rear wheels have more traction, up to the point that they skid.  In a straight line, with rwd, this may just cause 'snaking'; on a corner, especially in slippery conditions, it causes oversteer.  Meanwhile, the front end goes light, so the front wheels have less grip.

If you don't believe this, you only have to watch a drag car - or any car for that matter - accelerating away from the line on a drag strip!

As a result of this immutable fact, if the front wheels are the driven wheels they lose grip much more quickly than driven rear wheels - so fwd cars start spinning their front wheels (i.e. losing traction) under hard acceleration far sooner than rwd cars do.  Once they have lost traction, the coefficient of sliding friction being far lower than the coefficient of static friction, it much more difficult to regain grip.

Of course, a 4x4 transfers drive from wheels that are begining to slip, to wheels that still have traction, so despite greater friction losses in the drive train they can use more of their power to accelerate.

The limits traction are affected by a whole range of variables: the power reaching the wheels; the weight of the vehicle; the size & adhesion of the tyres; the grip of the road surface; the suspension set-up (which was why the rwd Capri, with it's beam rear axle & leaf spring suspension couldn't make the most of its rwd) etc.

If fwd was as effective at getting power onto the road as rwd, F1 cars would use it.  The fact is that it isn't.  You also need to take into consideration the fact that it is easier to have larger tyres to handle enormous power, if you don't have to steer the wheels - which is why dragsters have huge rear tyres and tiny little ones - and why some powerful sports cars & some Calibras have fatter wheels on the back, but never more than 8-8 1/2" wheels on the front.

What the 'limit' is will vary according to the combination of variables, but fwd will invariably reach these limits under acceleration before rwd.  I don't know exactly what the 'sensible' limit for fwd is, but I reckon that Vx didn't get it far wrong when they realised that the over 200bhp of the Turbo needed 4x4.

From my experience in Kingsley's Courtney 3.0L conversion Calibra I guess that 240-250bhp is probably about the 'sensible' limit for fwd in the Calibra.  However, even I acknowledge that 'probably the best Calibra in the world' (Frank's 3.2L supercharged 'Beast') produced well over 300bhp (& at the end, with nitrous, around 500bhp) & still was a fabulous car.  Despite that, the simple fact was that fwd limited the extent to which Frank could realistically use all that power & made driving it a much more skilled exercise.


Offline MarkV6

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2006, 15:03:33 PM »
Now, now, play nice in my thread you two  :D

TBH I'm not too bothered about traffic light starts, more the overtake capability of slower traffic from 50 mph onwards where traction shouldn't be so much of an issue.  Granted if I start to get wheelspin in third that may be a problem  ;D

I like to think I drive with a bit of mechanical sympathy (TC light not flashed on for months  :) ) and at the end of the day be it FWD, RWD, of 4x4, the tyres are what get the power down.

(Also I'm bit of a tightwad and don't like to see my expensive tyres wafting past the window in a cloud of smoke  :P )

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2006, 16:24:17 PM »
Now, now, play nice in my thread you two  :D

I hope that I wasn't rude in my response - I certainly didn't accuse anyone of talking 'bullsh*t' - just stated the facts.

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TBH I'm not too bothered about traffic light starts, more the overtake capability of slower traffic from 50 mph onwards where traction shouldn't be so much of an issue.  Granted if I start to get wheelspin in third that may be a problem  ;D

I agree, there are very few occasions when the 'traffic light grand prix' is worth the cost of fuel & rubber, or embarrassment of trying to out drag some other car!  'Rev. Rev. Rev. Drop the clutch. Squeal the tyres.  Lay down black lines on the road. Beat some other punter off the lights by fractions of a second - who might not even have been trying (the number of times I let lesser cars go, even when I know that what I'm driving could eat them alive, because I can't be bothered to prove that my 'pr*ck' is bigger than theirs).  What's the point?  It's different if you're on a race track, or drag strip.

You'd be hard pushed to spin the wheels of a V6, even in third, at much above 50mph (unless you're also trying to corner at the same time - in which case you'll get understeer).  You already have a fair amount of momentum at those speeds, especially with the weight of the V6 lump, so you have less inertia to overcome.  The extra weight on the front wheels also helps to maintain traction.

With a normally aspirated V6 - even a 3.0L one - you're not likely to be getting much above 220bhp, so still below the limit that I was suggesting is sensible for fwd.  I believe that it is possible to push that up to around 240bhp, but beyond that you really need forced air (super or turbo-charger) to increase the bhp significantly.  It may be possible to do it with normal aspiration - as on an F1 engine - but only by narrowing the power band at the top end of the rev range.

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I like to think I drive with a bit of mechanical sympathy (TC light not flashed on for months  :) ) and at the end of the day be it FWD, RWD, of 4x4, the tyres are what get the power down.

(Also I'm bit of a tightwad and don't like to see my expensive tyres wafting past the window in a cloud of smoke  :P )

Quite right - when I see drivers laying rubber down unnecessarily, I just think 'dickhead' - they may impress their mates, but not many other people.  I occasionally get the TC light flickering, even on my rwd BMW, but not for long and usually only when conditions are slippery, or very occasionally if I'm accelerating hard off a roundabout.

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2006, 18:11:19 PM »
I fully understand and even agree on that.  For racing, yes, FWD is not so good.  But for Street, even with alot of power, it's not hard to control.  Like I said, I have driven a few decentley powered front drive cars (300-400 Horse).  It's simply NOT beyond the limits of the car, just beyond the limits of the driver.  If you goose the sh*t, then yeah, you're gonna have problems.  With a high power car, I want fast accel at higher speeds, being that I do alot of freeway (Motorway/Autobahn) driving.  Most of my trips are in the 60 mile range.

If I ever build a car for drag racing, then it will be AWD or RWD.  I just can't stand it when people start talking about 250HP being beyond the limits of a FWD, cause it just isn't.  Then again, I don't buuild to race, I build to do so and have a car that is different.  By having a high power V6, thats different.  Not alot of them out there, plus taking on a porsche every once in a great while would be fun too.

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Re: The Golden Wonder (3.0 V6)
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2006, 18:20:31 PM »
I hope that I wasn't rude in my response - I certainly didn't accuse anyone of talking 'bullsh*t' - just stated the facts.

Sorry, didn't mean to accuse any one person of talking bullsh*t.  I understand what you're on about, but what you are talking about has to do with racing, hard accel from a stop.  If it's too much for you (I mean the average person there), then let off the gas a bit, that's all.  I preffer RWD cars, but the cally just doesn't come that way, and the turbos are just too hard to find in good condition.  I have found a few, but the ignorant people wanted upwards of 7,000 for them (The cheaper of the ones I found was 7,000 and a 92 with 60,000KM on the dial). 

Again, sorry about coming off as an asswhole who doesn't know anything, or that it seemed directed at one person in particular (It wasn't), and I do know a thing or two about cars and racing.