Author Topic: F18 to F20 and Driveshaft Questions  (Read 7873 times)

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Offline Miscbrah

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F18 to F20 and Driveshaft Questions
« on: May 28, 2014, 12:04:13 PM »
Hi good people. C411BRA's thread touched on something I've been pondering, which is dropping in a Saab B204e to my SE5. Or rather, getting someone cleverer to do it instead. UNLIKE my turboing the C20NE idea this one has an extra 7.19814% chance of actually happening, but thought I'd ask a few questions first. Closer to the time and if it looks like it's do-able, I'll start a proper thread for it. Things I guess I need clarifying are:

If at all possible I'd keep my F18 with current new stage 1 clutch. This should mate up to the B204e no problem using the Saab pressure plate, and should tolerate the 154bhp and 160-odd ft/lbs of torque. BUT the B204l is a mere remap and boost controller away, which generates 184-odd bhp and 190-odd ft/lbs (a little over spec of the F18.) My question is, not knowing transmissions and this car in the end being my daily driver, is it likely or unlikely the F18 is up to the task? Initially and/or with the uprated power? I drive like a granny and never ever speed, but I do about 30 miles a day in it and once in a blue moon I like to blow the cobwebs off.

Second thing, is it a lot of work swapping an F18 for an F20? Cable speedo on both so no issues there... I think! Do cable speedos just work between F18 and F20 boxes? As an aside, the B204 needs a speedo signal from the abs ecu/somewhere, but that's to be tackled separately. Loom adapter/remap the Saab ecu is a whole issue on it's own.

Third thing is, Saab converter people in the know say swap drive shafts for XE or LET driveshafts. Are these really different to the NE driveshafts? Do they need swapping anyway if the gearbox is an F18 or an F20 or do they just fit?

Reps ofc for any help, and as always grateful.  :)
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Offline Bad Kid

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Re: F18 to F20 and Driveshaft Questions
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2014, 18:14:19 PM »
Yes it'll almost definitely be strong enough. Things like drag-racing off the lights destroy gearboxes. Is the B204 not more powerful than what you've stated? I assumed it was around 200bhp?

F18 and F20 share the same speedo cable, or you most likely use the thin red/blue wire in the drivers footwell for a speed signal.

Contact Nige-P for the adapter loom on Migweb

Driveshafts are the only tricky issue here. Bear with me on this:

The passenger side shaft is not an issue. You could leave it still fitted while dropping an engine in. It's nothing to do with the engine at all.

The drivers side shaft however is. It's in two-pieces, otherwise known as an equal length shaft. The piece closest to the gearbox has a bracket attached to it, which bolts up to the back of the engine block. On say a C20XE Calibra there's a certain bolt pattern to the bracket, which matches up to a bolt pattern on the block. This is shared with the C20LET and C20NE blocks.

Now you're fitting a B204 - is the bolt pattern for the driveshaft bracket the same? If yes - you're laughing. Use any Calibra 4 cylinder equal length shafts

If no - you have two options

1) Use unequal length shafts from a big-block Cavalier Mk3. Vectra B ones should also work. These have no bracket and will fit no problem.

2) Try and use a mixture of Saab parts, or possibly complete Saab drivers shaft, with the equal length bracket with the correct bolt pattern for the B204!

Hope that makes sense
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Offline Miscbrah

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Re: F18 to F20 and Driveshaft Questions
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2014, 18:49:52 PM »
Cor blimey bugger that's a good reply! Reps sir.

To business. First, Nige is indeed a gentleman and scholar and has been PM-ed by myself. He does the ECU flashing and manufactures plug and play looms, and so I'll be getting those from him as and when the project goes ahead. He offered a bunch of help and has a great resource over at saabconversions.com. I get the feeling that if I had just a bit more knowledge I could take more advantage of that place.

Second, yes there is a B204 with 200bhp. Actually there are several flavours of B204 engine:
B204i: 177 N·m (131 lb·ft) @ 4300 rpm 130 hp (97 kW) @ 5500 rpm 10.1:1 Non Turbocharged
B204E: 219 N·m (162 lb·ft) @ 3600 rpm 154 hp (115 kW) @ 5500 rpm 9.2:1 0.40 bar (5.8 psi)
B204L: 263 N·m (194 lb·ft) @ 2100 rpm 185 hp (138 kW) @ 5500 rpm 9.2:1 0.73 bar (10.6 psi)
B204R: 280 N·m (210 lb·ft) @ 2200 rpm 200 hp (150 kW) @ 5500 rpm 9.2:1 1.00 bar (14.5 psi)

From research, the E is the low pressure turbo variant, and the only differences between that and the L are a boost controller and a remap. For now, in my case, the E will be fine but I *know* I'll get the same performance itch six months later and do want to be prepared for that. After 185-odd hp though, if I've not rolled myself into ditches daily, I'll be staying there as I believe madness lies in putting much more through the front wheels.

The part about the driveshafts, from their site and indeed Nige's own thread goes thus:

Quote
F20 gearbox,
this will bolt straight upto the saab engine no problem but you will have to use both c20xe or c20let shafts and the equal length mount will need to be trimmed, clutch you will use the saab flywheel and pressure plate and then the f20 friction disc

Is that sounding like a miserable old job or is it sounding not so bad? I'll be watching and nodding along for that part and someone more mechanically talented will be doing the 'doing' but I'd REALLY like to choose the path of least resistance for the sake of their sanity. If that path happens to be big block Cavalier shaft, are we talking C20NE Cavalier or something else?

Bad Kid, that's a wicked reply and I'm starting to understand how this is all bolting together, as the ideas in my head bolt together also. Cheers for writing all that!! :)
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vexorg

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Re: F18 to F20 and Driveshaft Questions
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2014, 20:59:14 PM »
If no - you have two options

1) Use unequal length shafts from a big-block Cavalier Mk3. Vectra B ones should also work. These have no bracket and will fit no problem.

2) Try and use a mixture of Saab parts, or possibly complete Saab drivers shaft, with the equal length bracket with the correct bolt pattern for the B204!

3) make an adapter to bolt somewhere on to the block?? It shouldn't be too much work

Also the SE8 and some other late calibras have same driveshaft as the Vectra

The unequal shafts are supposed to make torque steer worse, more so on a fwd turbo car

Offline Bad Kid

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Re: F18 to F20 and Driveshaft Questions
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2014, 18:54:46 PM »
If Nige is saying the Saab equal length mount fits (with trimming) I'd go with that. He's the man in the know. Then a pair of regular Calibra shafts.

Sounds easiest to me.

I would fit the most powerful B204 if i was you for the following reasons

1) Yes 200bhp+ is a lot for FWD in some situations, but you don't have to use it all. Your right foot has control, or you could set the boost to vary by gear

2) It gives you scope for future tuning

3) They are all about the same price anyway!

You could even have an in-car adjustable boost controller, to give you zero psi (and probably 150bhp) for daily use and max boost (200+) for if you're on a straight dry road being hassled by a Saxo.
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Offline Martin.

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Re: F18 to F20 and Driveshaft Questions
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2014, 21:59:04 PM »
You could even have an in-car adjustable boost controller, and max boost (200+) for if you're on a straight dry road being hassled by a Saxo.

Lol. I'd just get out my car walk over to the Saxo driving prick and tell him farther Christmas isn't real and laugh as I watch him cry about it.
Job done!
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Offline Miscbrah

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Re: F18 to F20 and Driveshaft Questions
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2014, 14:22:33 PM »
If Nige is saying the Saab equal length mount fits (with trimming) I'd go with that. He's the man in the know. Then a pair of regular Calibra shafts.

Sounds easiest to me.

Roger that, thanks for the advice. Yes Nige is the proverbial Don on these matters, though he has been a bit silent in recent weeks. He's probably busy manufacturing looms I'd imagine. :)

As for the rest, yeah might just go with the 185bhp at first to keep initial spend down and not wanting to stress the F18 too much. That'll put it already at 14ft/lbs over specified tolerable torque.

ARE my driveshafts up to the task though? Are NE/XE/LET driveshafts just the same thing/part?

I DO really like that idea of an adjustable boost controller though to wind the power down unless the mood takes me. I'll get on ebay and price one up. Anything the chef would recommend just out of interest?

Reps again for the help this has all been great. :)
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Offline Miscbrah

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Re: F18 to F20 and Driveshaft Questions
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2014, 14:24:14 PM »
Lol. I'd just get out my car walk over to the Saxo driving prick and tell him farther Christmas isn't real and laugh as I watch him cry about it.
Job done!

He's NOT real???

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Offline CALIBRAKRIS1986

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Re: F18 to F20 and Driveshaft Questions
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2014, 15:18:34 PM »
F18s aint to bad I done 5k in my turbo that I made from a ecotec ran fwd made 224 at the wheels on rollers and the box was spot on I thin it was wr one too I just put a 9l intercooler on  to eliminate it wheels spinning and boosting to quick and was sound for it